Thursday, June 4, 2009

Day 20+: House Telvanni is misunderstood

Before I get into the main point of this post, I'm going to list all the factions I currently belong to:

  • Great House Telvanni: Master
  • Mages' Guild: Master Wizard
  • Fighters' Guild: Protector
  • Thieves' Guild: Operative
  • Tribunal Temple: Diviner
  • Imperial Cult: Primate
  • Imperial Legion: Agent

The Blades and the Ashlanders also show up in my faction list, but I'm not aware of any quests for them aside from the main quest, so I don't count them. The Imperial Legion was the last one I joined, and I did so partially because I was so pleasantly surprised with how unexpectedly enjoyable the Temple quests were, but also because my journal had a few errant Legion entries that I acquired by accident while just going around interacting with people and things. This turned out to be a bit of a problem.

Imperial Legion problem

This section contains an anti-spoiler. Reading this may prevent you from messing something up in your game.

The main one I wanted to complete was in Ald Velothi, because I had picked up a quest from a random townsperson, who said someone was being held captive in a nearby camp. I went over there, found the woman, paid off the kidnappers, and brought her back to town, whereupon she thanked me, and the quest seemed over. But it was still an active quest in my journal, and it was marked as a Legion quest, even though I wasn't in the Legion. So I looked the quest up on UESP, and found that the one who should complete the quest was Darius of the Imperial Legion. It also said that if you began that quest before joining the Legion, you'd never get to do the quests that came before it, because Darius would not offer them. It claimed that the problem was fixed by the unofficial patch, but it was not fixed for me. First of all, after I joined the Legion, Darius immediately promoted me, but then kept telling me to go rescue the woman, and didn't acknowledge that she was already rescued. My journal showed that she was rescued, and I went back to town and talked with her again, and she again thanked me for rescuing her, but Darius still wouldn't acknowledge it. So I used the console to complete the quest. Darius then offered me the next quest, skipping the first two quests he was supposed to offer. This is a disappointment, because I was looking forward to the Widow Vabdas quest, since I had already found the things I needed to do for that quest while exploring, and purposely left them alone so I could do the quest normally. I guess the lesson here is: join every faction possible, just in case.

The worst part about the Legion is that you can't deal with the questgivers unless you're wearing an Imperial cuirass. They'll refuse to speak to you because you're "out of uniform." This is annoying because those cuirasses are useless extra weight to me, as I fight mostly unarmoured, and if I did need a cuirass, I have higher quality ones with useful enchantments in storage. Thankfully, there's a mod that adds a new item that satisfies the same requirement, but it's a weightless Legion badge that doesn't need to be worn, just carried.

Impression of other guilds

So far the Thieves' Guild quests have been rather boring. However, in Oblivion, the Thieves' Guild final quest was one of the most interesting quests of all, so maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised with them later.

The quests from the Wolverine Hall branch of the Fighters' Guild are better, especially since they had two quests that involved visiting glass mines. I'm happy to report that the problem I was having before with not being able to loot raw ebony deposits has been cleared up, and the glass deposits in these mines gave me no trouble either. I obtained a lot of raw materials that day. Maybe I'll even splurge a little on using some to craft some worthless glass pots and jars. The second load of glass was a welcome reward for trudging all the way to that mine loaded down with 50 pounds of sujamma to deliver. I don't know how these miners can claim that mining is "hard work" when I can just sneak some glass out of the deposit when they're not looking. Morrowind being a conquered holding of the mercantilist Empire, of course, all glass "belongs to the Emperor". I'm not a fan of mercantilism in general, and I still have a grudge against the Emperor for the prison incident at the beginning of the game, so I'm happy to relieve him of some of his unfairly claimed raw materials.

Telvanni stronghold quest

Reaching the rank of Master in House Telvanni allowed me to do the quest for the third and final stage of my stronghold, a Telvanni mushroom tower. After I had done so, however, I found it to be a bit lacking in utility for a wizard. I did a little search, and found 4 or 5 mods (maybe more) that redesign and/or expand the tower. This is not to say I think the tower is too small -- on the contrary, it's the largest stronghold of the three Great Houses. But the ceilings are rather low, the doorways are a little too narrow (I keep getting caught in them as I try to pass through them), and there's one section that's excessively tightly packed considering you have to work your way around these things via levitation, which gets you caught on even more things than just walking around does. Aside from the navigation issues, there's just not enough mage-related working space. Considering House Telvanni is mainly geared toward magic users, I'd expect more magic-related working space. Well, actually, I could work with it, as the "dungeon" underground (really just a cavern, as there are no prison cells there) has plenty of room where I could set up my portable alchemy lab and some of that portable furniture from Balmora. I might like to move my home base from the Magus Realm to here, and I'm looking to see if I can find a mod I like.

Several of them expand the place a great deal, though, such as adding a town surrounding the tower, quests, large underground extensions, etc. I don't need to run a whole city, but I do like the idea of more quests. The problem is, from the mods' descriptions, I'm again seeing a public opinion that House Telvanni is evil, and they're explicitly designing the tower additions and quests with this thought in mind. Now I'm drawing parallels to the robe I was talking about before, that was called a "Telvanni" robe, but had nothing to do with any Telvanni symbols or colours, and in fact looked like a necromancer robe. Whoever made that robe had this same idea that the Telvanni are evil.

In defense of House Telvanni

Like the other Great Houses, and also the guilds, House Telvanni has an in-game book describing what House Telvanni is all about. Theirs is called The Affairs of Wizards, which should give you an idea right away where they're coming from. "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards," advises Tolkien, "for they are subtle and quick to anger." (Never mind that joke version involving dragons and ketchup, which has become better known than the thing it parodies.) The book explains that most of what you may have heard about the Telvanni is untrue, and that they are a cosmopolitan group who does not discriminate against outlanders or beast races for entry in the house, which is true. And they certainly don't hate outlanders as much as the 6th House does, what with all the "N'wah must die" business. The book also implies that House Redoran may have a grudge against House Telvanni, due to some limited economic sanctions the Telvanni imposed against the Redoran, "for political reasons".

Twice, when I was approaching the end of Master Aryon's quests, I was sent to defend two different Telvanni wizards from invasion and attacks by Houses Redoran and Hlaalu, in which their forces invaded these wizards' homes. In one of those cases, it was never explained why they were attacking, aside from a terse note I found on the body of the leader of the invaders saying that they've taken the tower "as ordered", and they'll hold it as long as possible. In the other case Master Aryon was of the opinion that it was just a simple land grab by the other house, and he opined that they should realise that there's plenty of room in Morrowind for all three Great Houses.

In reading the version of the quest for the attacking House in the first case, on the other hand, they had attacked the Telvanni wizard because he was apparently a necromancer. This does seem to fit the evidence, I have to say. There were skulls and bones lying around, which I assumed were there because the place looked like an ancestral tomb or one of those places that have those round sand pits with the bones in them, but he also had lots of summoned daedra in the place, and as we all know, conjuration and necromancy go hand in hand. (Never mind the fact that this particular necromancer has developed a new method of necromancy that doesn't require the use of body parts -- only a drawing!) But does this make House Telvanni evil? What, because a necromancer belonged to House Telvanni, that makes all Telvanni necromancers? I seem to recall also finding a necromancer as a member in good standing of the Balmora Mages' Guild. But I'm willing to guess that much of this idea that the Telvanni are evil is based on these quests that the other two houses get, even though from the Telvanni side these are preemptive strikes by the other houses.

The subsequent quests involving assassinating one member each of the other two attacking Houses were distasteful to me, but I can see them justifying it as an act of revenge against the other Houses' attacks, or as a means of sending a warning message not to do it again. I don't justify it, as I wouldn't have done it if it weren't necessary to complete the questline, and I understand the other Houses have more or less identical quests at this stage in their questlines, so no one's innocent.

In one of the Imperial Legion quests, I learned that Baladas Demnevanni is keeping an orc Legionnaire prisoner. When I asked him about it, he explained that she came demanding tribute from the Empire of Men. He had been living in Morrowind long before the Imperials invaded and conquered the place, and he expected to still be there after they were gone, and therefore considered himself exempt from their taxes. Personally, I find that to be a perfectly reasonable position to take. The Empire invaded a sovereign nation, conquered them, and are occupying their land by force, to the anger and resentment of the native population. This is another Telvanni who just wants to be left alone to his research, as seems to be the case in most of the conflicts between the Telvanni and other houses and guilds. Anyway, Baladas was very agreeable, and released her after I suggested that she'd learned her lesson. Considering what happened to that other tax collector back in Seyda Neen (remember Processus Vitellius?), it seems to me that I'm seeing more mercy and generosity from the Telvanni than others give.

Sliding scale of evil

How do the Telvanni compare to other groups that are unquestionably evil? The Dark Brotherhood -- now they're evil. From the first time you meet Lucien Lachance in Oblivion (accidentally in my case), he makes it very clear that he enjoys murder and torture, and approves of others who do so. The other members laugh and joke about killing children or entire families, and clearly joined the Dark Brotherhood because they love murder for the sake of murder, and consider it just a bonus that they get paid for it. I haven't seen enough of the Cammona Tong to know if they're as bad as the Dark Brotherhood, but the Morag Tong seem to be the "good" assassins. If you have a society with both good and bad assassins, I think the bad ones must be pretty evil. The Sixth House? Also evil. Telvanni? Not so much.

I thought at first that the reason for the impression of the Telvanni being evil was because they defend slavery, but as I found in talking with many NPCs, this is a Dunmer sentiment in general, not unique to House Telvanni. You see slavery in both of the other Great Houses, as well. But do the other Great Houses run a convalescence home for victims of corprus disease, as Telvanni Divayth Fyr does? Of course not! Redoran's too busy going out and smiting evil to care for the sick, while Hlaalu would never engage in such a lossy business venture. But here, the corprus victims are well-protected, and one of Divayth's daughters devotes all her time in tending to their needs while Divayth himself attempts to develop a cure, or at least eliminate the harmful effects of the disease.

I can't paint a purely glowing portrait of House Telvanni, of course. A couple of the counselors give quests that involve killing another House member for purely selfish and material gain, not justified at all. And I think the game is not fair for setting it up to require killing them, anyway. When I go to Senise Thindo because Master Neloth wants her Robe of the Drake's Pride, and she's wearing it (so it's not pickpocketable), and tells me it's "not for sale," realistically there should be an option to explain that Neloth means to obtain it over her dead body, and I should have the option to offer her a very good price for it. Most people would be willing to part with something if they knew that someone was planning to kill them to get it. That's the sort of option I was given in the quest where Ranis Athrys sent me to kill Tashpi Ashibael, so why not here? At least with mods that allow you to negotiate "companion share" with any NPC, you can roleplay around these limitations, and exchange someone's not-for-sale robe or Flesh Made Whole amulet for a generous amount of gold.

Anyway, that doesn't excuse the fact that these counselors gave the quests in the first place. But again, I consider these to be occasional bad apples that do not condemn the majority of the house members. Much like I shouldn't condemn the whole Mages' Guild for the murderous intent of Ranis Athrys and Sirilonwe, or the necromantic practises of Sharn gra-Muzgob.

Telvanni Décor and conclusion

With the worst out of the way, I want to finally draw attention to the preferred décor of Telvanni members. While necromancers and the Dark Brotherhood like to live and work in dark tombs, sleeping on stone slabs, surrounded by bloody altars, rotting dead bodies, and human bones and viscera, the Telvanni tend to prefer surrounding themselves with life and creativity rather than death and putrification. They grow their towers from tree-mushrooms like you might expect a druid to do, and surround themselves in these living plant-buildings with elegant carvings, glowing blue crystals, and objects of study such as books, scrolls, and potions. If preferred living conditions reflect a person's personality, then I'd say this reflects positively on House Telvanni.

Not much else to say about that, but this Telvanni apologia has run overlong anyway.

6 comments:

  1. Your hose mod is perfect, I could not find a better house, not even that tent. It simply fits the place it is so good I can't imagine what was there before. I just could not make the alchemy lab work, I suppose I need to grab the separate mod? Same with the special container?

    I will not play Oblivion for a long time, it just runs bad on my computer, but I am trying on another computer for one more week or so. The game is very beautiful, and I really like how things actually can be bumped and arrows picked up, these details. And Marksman... it is really nice on this one, and magic so much easier. I tried a Breton mage, since magic seemed easier on this one, but... still complicated for me. So I tried my favorite kind of character *again*, a Marksman with a few magic, Inteligence based magic schools so to take advantage of the points I get from Alchemy. It fits nicelly, since that leaves me with Cojuration and Mysticism going up fast, both that are nice to go with Marksman. Illusion would be good too, but I was affraid to spread the points too much. The race is a Khajit, to take advantage of the Sneak skill on combat, and, of course, because they are damn cute on Oblivion.

    So far, I am doing good on the game, but just like Morrowind, I get sidetracked so fast to the other quests! I loved the one related to the Bloated Boat Inn on the Imperial City, did it twice and got two different endings, loved that. Oh and herbs, they get me in trouble as I keep going going going. Bull Netches will make a hate society against me on Morrowind... I need to lvl and get something else on my way I suppose. Anyway, Oblivion is a great game, hope I can get a better computer soon on the future to play it till the end.

    On the Telvanni, the idea I got from them could be understood as they are the most "loyal to the Morrowind culture roots" guys, thinking about the Houses. They still use enslavery, they still have necromancers around, they use mushroom buildings on a land filled with marshes, and they dislike outlanders. Evil is a matter of point of view, and to the Imperial guys, they must look not trustfull, or even dangerous. As I recall from the in game books, Telvanni weren't very enthusiastic with the Vivec agreement thing settled, I remember that from the book called "on Morrowind". On that, it doesn't even seems like a real thing, since so many parts where Vivec is envolved nobody is certain how or when it happened, but it is just an impression I got.

    Thank you for the mod suggestion for faces and hairs, but on the how to use part, it seems to be a Construction Set based thing, so I decided not to take it. I will kepp looking though for one.

    Once again, thank you for the house mod, it is very nice.

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  2. "It simply fits the place it is so good I can't imagine what was there before. I just could not make the alchemy lab work, I suppose I need to grab the separate mod? Same with the special container?"

    There was nothing in that area before, just an empty bit of swamp like the area around it.  By "alchemy lab" do you mean the actual apparatus, or the ingredient cabinet?  The apparatus should work by itself with no other mods, but the ingredient cabinet and the grinder do require COBL Main.esm to be installed and active.

    "Oblivion [...] is very beautiful, and I really like how things actually can be bumped and arrows picked up"

    I do like the arrow retrieval, but I don't like the Havok physics on the items, because it makes it hell to keep things neatly arranged in your home, and it causes items to float several inches above the tables or other surfaces, which doesn't look good.  I think the Morrowind item manipulation was superior in that regard.

    "my favorite kind of character *again*, a Marksman with a few magic, Inteligence based magic schools so to take advantage of the points I get from Alchemy. Illusion would be good too, but I was affraid to spread the points too much."

    I assume you picked Marksman because you want to stay out of range of the enemy and preferably not get hit, right?  I think Illusion would be very useful for that, because you can use it to turn invisible after shooting your arrow.  Oblivion's alchemy will be useful for making poisons you can apply to your arrows, as well.

    "I loved the one related to the Bloated Boat Inn on the Imperial City, did it twice and got two different endings"

    So did I!  Except I happened to get the best, most interesting ending the first time I played it, so I discarded the second time.

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  3. On the Telvanni, the idea I got from them could be understood as they are the most "loyal to the Morrowind culture roots"

    That sounds right to me.  They're the "old-fashioned Dunmer" who are not interested in integrating with this human Empire.  And if they're all as long-lived as the ones I've encountered (Neloth referred to Senise Thindo as "a mere child of 200 years"), then this Imperial occupation may seem like nothing but a passing phase that doesn't merit any serious consideration, or perhaps an interferance to their very long-term plans.

    As I recall from the in game books, Telvanni weren't very enthusiastic with the Vivec agreement thing settled, I remember that from the book called "on Morrowind". On that, it doesn't even seems like a real thing, since so many parts where Vivec is envolved nobody is certain how or when it happened, but it is just an impression I got.

    Interesting.  Thanks for pointing that out.  I had read that book when I was playing Oblivion, and none of the names or places were familiar to me, so it didn't mean much to me at the time, and I didn't read it again since I started playing Morrowind until you mentioned it here.  Now that I've re-read it here, I see what happened. Did you get far enough in the main quest to see Vivec himself?  I found him by accident, having no idea he was there, when I broke into one of the temple rooms in Vivec city.  He's disturbing-looking.  I'm going to install a mod that makes him look better.  And did you get far enough to find out Vivec's origin?

    Thank you for the mod suggestion for faces and hairs, but on the how to use part, it seems to be a Construction Set based thing, so I decided not to take it. I will kepp looking though for one.ing you just install, and then you can pick the hair when you create your character.

    No no, I'm sure there are only a couple of hairs in that one that are construction set-only.  Most of the mod is something you just install, and then you can pick the hair when you create your character.

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  4. I haven't played much, so no Vivec yet. I saw his screenshot, its damn creepy, hehe. Soon I will have the time to play it more and then I will go forward on the quests. This is my last week on a very different vacation, so I will probably not play Morrowind for now.

    On the mods, I found one that made me happy, it is Animated Ponytail Hair wig by SleepyD and Growlfs Animated Hair mod, both found on TES Nexus. Thank you for linking that one =)

    I wish the Elder Scrolls books would come out as real books, much better to read, and the story seems good, but I never know the order to read them. That is why I am getting this huge book collection on my tent in Morrowind, so I get all editions and sort out a good way to read on a lazy day.

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  5. Oftentimes, if I find a book I want to read at more leisure and with more control over the display, I look up that book on UESP.net, because they have all the in-game books there in simply-formatted HTML. I'd say most of them are short stories that don't need to be read in any particular order unless they're numbered, which some are. I really like the short stories, that usually have a little twist or surprise at the end.

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  6. I don't think House Telvanni is evil, and as political entities, they all exist in a sort of gray area.

    On slavery: All of the Houses seem to, for the most part, support the idea of a law which maintains the tradition of slavery. House Hlaalu employs slaves as laborers (ebony mining, farming) while it doesn't look like the other two Houses apply in an industrial capacity, so much. The Telvanni appear to utilize slaves as pets and seem to have the most visible slave markets. The Redoran hardly appear to utilize slaves at all.

    On the Corpusarium: I don't think Divayth Fyr's caring for corpus victims really says much about Telvanni morality in general. For one, the Corpusarium seems to exist as much to aid Fyr's studies as it does to actually help people. For another, he's one guy, operating basically independently of the other Telvanni, and he does not actively involve himself in House politics (so even if he were a moral paragon, he's not influencing Telvanni policy for the better -- at least not directly).

    But has anybody in the other Houses shown so much care and generosity to the unfortunate? I think so. I could be wrong, but I think the Morrowind abolition movement has its strongest support among the Hlaalu (which makes sense, since they've assimilated a lot more of Imperial culture than the other Houses). Meanwhile, House Redoran are the Temple's most stalwart patrons (in fact, a Redoran's first loyalty is not to the House, but to the Temple) and the Temple does a lot of charity work, so I'm guessing that the average Redoran does a lot more to help the sick and poor than the average Telvanni.

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